Curse

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aracos79

In an attempt to bring this topic back to it's intended subject... let me say that I think we need to accept some standard concepts.

First, UAS is never going to happen. ANet has said so and I doubt very much they will change their mind. I'm not saying this to try and antagonize anybody. It is simply a fact, a fact which should shape the course of this debate. There's no point in arguing the merits of UAS because it will never happen.

Second, PvP and PvE play will never be completely seperated. Again, this is because ANet has said that will never happen. The game they want to create involves a connection between the two, and I don't see them changing their mind on that one either. So again, I see very little point in arguing for or against this concept since the developers will not consider it.

For myself, I think if we spent nearly as much time trying to find enjoyment in the things we CAN do in the game as we do pointing out the things we can't, we would all enjoy the game a whole lot more. Look at the positives... we have free online play, devs who care about their product, and a passionate community. That's a lot more than most games have going for them.

So let's keep the debate constructive, and not dig up old horses that aren't worth beating again.

No doubt we have alot of positive things going on in GW. Yet, I personally believe that there could be even more.

But, Playing along with idea that the fact that anet hasnt given up on linking RP and PVPonly yet means they never will... Lets work within that mindframe. I'm open to suggestions about what can be done to address the imbalance that exists between RP characters and PVP characters in competitive play. And before anyone tells me that all I have to do is make a pvponly character and tada my problem is solved, I would say that I prefer to have all four of my characters able to interact in the world. I dont see why having that preference should put me at a disadvantage in competitive play. And besides that, telling me that if I'm not going to make a pvp only character then I shouldnt complain about imbalance between RP and pvp only, is telling me that if I dont play the way "you" (whoever you is) do, then I somehow should be at a disadvantage in competitive play. A notion which I reject.

and to make sure that both topics of the thread stay alive dispite certain individual's attempts to kill the thread, I'm still waiting for one person to tell me how its not hypocritical to complain that the game is not Skill > Time played enough, and then turn around take lengths to make sure that the introductory pvp areas are completely unbalanced towards Time > Skill... Its like they want to complain because they have to spend time to unlock all the PVP things to be competiitve with those who have, but then they argue that the time they've spent playing the game entitles them to bring things to the arena that doesnt belong??

Aracos79 · Aug 30, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Elistan, if you'll look at one of my posts from yesterday you'll see an answer to your question of your perceived hypocrisy. To summarize my previous post, "hardcore" PvP players do not consider the introductory PvP arenas to be TRUE PvP environments. To them, real PvP begins in the Tombs and includes GvG. Why don't the intro arenas qualify? Their random nature negates any planning or strategy. It can't be true PvP because you can't plan, you can't strategize, you can't build specific setups. So therefore it doesn't matter what happens in them. It's not unfair to bring elites to Ascalon in their mind because it is not a true PvP environment.

Does that excuse bringing elites to Ascalon? No... but it does explain why they don't care.

Sanji · Aug 30, 2005, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I can agree with that train of thought, Aracos, however, that doesn't mean the arguement that people who desire PvP unlocks to be either faster or instant are the same people who go to the Ascalon or Yak's Bend Arenas in Droknar Forge armor.

It's a fallacious assumption that the people who grief the low level Arenas are the people who complain about the state of PvP Unlocks. It definately isn't enough to call them hypocrites in attempt to try to invalidate their arguement. If anything, people who want faction would see more appeal in the far more effecient methods that the low level arenas, since those in a Guild have the means to do so.

It is as futile an effort to attempt to split up the game as it is to try and reintroduce UAS to the game now. No amount of redundant threads or repeated arguements will bring UAS in the game, likewise no amount of redundant threads or repeated arguments will split the game into exclusive PvE and PvP servers.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Yes, sorry I did see that post and I never got around to addressing it. I'm not so sure that I can condone the logic behind that argument. I mean, if its not true pvp why do they get so jazzed about goin on a X-number of wins run against people who have no chance? The guy in droks armor slinging poison arrows around seemed pretty damn excited about rubbing in his wins for it not being "real" pvp.

Even playing along with that argument for the sake of it, I've gone into the arena and just simply asked the same question I've asked on this board, "can someone tell me what justifies bringing things that dont belong in this arena here?" I've never once been told that they are justified because its not real pvp. No, definitely the top two answers are "I worked hard (spent time) to have the money to do this and I'll play how I want to", and, "youre just mad cause you cant." (although I'm standing there as a 20th lvl Mo/W...) Thus I personally believe that it simply once again comes down to the lowest common denominatior, when they arent the ones with the percieved advantage of having EVERY skill in the game unlocked, and they might have to spend the same time that others who already have done so did to have those skills they complain that its not Skill > Time. Yet when they are the ones who make sure that they've got the advantage purely because of time spent, then its ok. And for no better reason than the arena is random? So? that means its not "real" pvp... its as real as it can be for the new players, but then again, how often does the lowest common denominator ever think about anyone elses enjoyment of the game?

Aracos79 · Aug 30, 2005, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Oh no. I by no means was saying that the griefers in the low-level arenas are the same people who want faster PvP unlocks. In fact I would say they are not the same at all. The insanely low faction rewards in those arenas make that a waste of time. I do think however that the general distain for the level of competition in those arenas contributes to the general lack of concern among PvP players about the conditions there.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I can agree with that train of thought, Aracos, however, that doesn't mean the arguement that people who desire PvP unlocks to be either faster or instant are the same people who go to the Ascalon or Yak's Bend Arenas in Droknar Forge armor.

It's a fallacious assumption that the people who grief the low level Arenas are the people who complain about the state of PvP Unlocks. It definately isn't enough to call them hypocrites in attempt to try to invalidate their arguement. If anything, people who want faction would see more appeal in the far more effecient methods that the low level arenas, since those in a Guild have the means to do so.

It is as futile an effort to attempt to split up the game as it is to try and reintroduce UAS to the game now. No amount of redundant threads or repeated arguements will bring UAS in the game, likewise no amount of redundant threads or repeated arguments will split the game into exclusive PvE and PvP servers.

Its not so fallacious assumption as you may think, not when I've seen the UAS crowd on several boards complain that the game is not skill > time, and seen some of those same posters use that very same "worked hard" justification in defense of bringing droks/elites to the introductory pvp areas.

Dont make the error of believing that I'm saying that everyone who pvp's is a hypocrite when it comes to this issue, but they are out there, in numbers. Folks who complain about the grind and how its not fair that they should have to spend time to be competitive with the people who spent time, and then turn right around and toss that philosophy right out the window when it comes to where new players are first introduced to pvp.

Whats more, we've covered the fact that Anet hasnt yet given up on this pipe dream of one gaming experience being agreeable to the twitch crowd and the roleplayers. I'm not doing anything to seperate the community, I don't have to do anything to do so. It is seperated. You can dog on me if you like for believing that the roleplaying game would be better with the removal of the twitches, but I've yet to see you reprimand a "hardcore" pvp player for comments about how the roleplaying game "doesnt matter" or any other number of derisive comments about anything other than PVP within the game. If youre going to display your own bias that blatantly, dont lecture me about what I'm supposedly doing to drive a wedge between this community. Please, that would be like trying to drive a wedge between the two sides of the Grand Canyon...

Sanji · Aug 30, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Its not so fallacious assumption as you may think, not when I've seen the UAS crowd on several boards complain that the game is not skill > time, and seen some of those same posters use that very same "worked hard" justification in defense of bringing droks/elites to the introductory pvp areas.

Dont make the error of believing that I'm saying that everyone who pvp's is a hypocrite when it comes to this issue, but they are out there, in numbers. Folks who complain about the grind and how its not fair that they should have to spend time to be competitive with the people who spent time, and then turn right around and toss that philosophy right out the window when it comes to where new players are first introduced to pvp.

I haven't seen any threads of the sort, personally. Care to post them? Though it sounds like they were ironic more than anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Whats more, we've covered the fact that Anet hasnt yet given up on this pipe dream of one gaming experience being agreeable to the twitch crowd and the roleplayers. I'm not doing anything to seperate the community, I don't have to do anything to do so. It is seperated.

Sure. That is, until the two extreme ends of the community rot off and leave the game for people who actually enjoy Guild Wars as it is, not despite what it isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

You can dog on me if you like for believing that the roleplaying game would be better with the removal of the twitches, but I've yet to see you reprimand a "hardcore" pvp player for comments about how the roleplaying game "doesnt matter" or any other number of derisive comments about anything other than PVP within the game.

Would it make you feel better if I scold Weezer or Shinsei the next time they make a thread I don't agree with? Don't mistake me, I'm not in the Hardcore PvP player court. Just because there are things I feel Anet still has much to do to make their game live up to it's ambitions doesn't mean I feel Anet betrayed us how it turned out at release. I don't even really care if UAS happens or not.

But I do care about the increase of demands for this game to be split up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

If youre going to display your own bias that blatantly, dont lecture me about what I'm supposedly doing to drive a wedge between this community. Please, that would be like trying to drive a wedge between the two sides of the Grand Canyon...

You are right. It was an error to state that you were trying to further drive a rift in this community when I should have said that this your second "Get the Hell out of my game" crusade you've started up on these boards along with your 105 Smiter thread. Both are polarized issues, neither really need someone opening up a thread with an abrasive rant.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 30, 2005, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I challenge anyone who says this game is not completely and utterly broken to go to the tombs, get 8 complete random people to join your group, and by random I mean not even looking at their class, and once you have a full team, tell each person a specific build they need to return with, and tell them to meet up there in 5 minutes with a maxed out perfect team build.

Can't do that? Then PvP is broken. Quit harping on this endless bullshit of "just deal with it". The game was "built from the ground up for competition", and if you can't compete with a PUG, the bare minimum of which is having at least a semi-organized team build, you are not playing competitively despite what you hypnotise yourself into thinking from your 30 minute PvP experience in the random arenas with a paladin build!

IlikeGW · Aug 30, 2005, 03:06 AM // 03:06

I'm guessing since it's been so long, that what's happening is in large part intended.

Add grind to the game = intentional strategy to be the content until a new expansion comes out. I mean, we've even heard Izzy echo our exact sentiments on how the skill system is really enjoyed... and if the guy who balances skills doesn't have his say in how skill acquisition works than you know there's an intentional decision here to turn the game into Grind Wars because some goon in a suit thinks that's the way to go.

It royally pisses me off that they duped us and even bait and switched us... not to mention ruined the hard work of the developers that did work on the PVP portion of the game. But I don't see much that can be done. Just move on to other games, continually sticking around even though you are miserable and don't like grind is exactly their plan. It works doesn't it? You gripe, but you keep at the grind. But I can't support that, it's just an immoral gaming service in my book, to bait people along rather than provide the entertainment promised.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

I haven't seen any threads of the sort, personally. Care to post them? Though it sounds like they were ironic more than anything else.

I'm not going to make that much effort, because even if I did you'd just strive to marginialize the posts I cite, if you want to see them do your own homework and then make up your mind, not that you havent already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Sure. That is, until the two extreme ends of the community rot off and leave the game for people who actually enjoy Guild Wars as it is, not despite what it isn't.

I'm not sure what youre trying to imply here, but I don't even see myself at either end of the spectrum. I'm not opposed to competitive play, I'd like to see balance between RP and PvPonly characters, and if Anet can do that without seperation, thats fine, I just dont see it going that way. If your implying I dont enjoy the game I'd say thats some mindreading ability you've got there if youre claiming to know what I enjoy. I dont remember saying negative things about the game, just like any other online game, its the lowest common denominator of the playerbase that is the largest negative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

Would it make you feel better if I scold Weezer or Shinsei the next time they make a thread I don't agree with? Don't mistake me, I'm not in the Hardcore PvP player court. Just because there are things I feel Anet still has to do to make their game as bold as their ambitions doesn't mean I feel Anet betrayed us by not living up to them fully in release. I don't even really care if UAS happens or not.

At what point did I say I was let down by anet? You think they CAN live up to thier bold ambitions, I rather doubt it. I admire that ambition, but its a fools errand. I've stated several times that I think Anet is doing a marvelous job. I personally would be fine if UAS never happend. I've never once cried about grind in this game. But if it would make the "hardcore" pvp players who dont give a rats ass about 1/2 of the game I rather enjoy happy and cease thier continual undermining of that aspect of the game I'd be just as happy to see them gone. As far as what you say to Weezer or whoever I really could care less. The point is you want to sit up on your high horse and tell me that I'm driving the community apart, but I've never once see you criticize anyone else for remarks easily as "devisive" as anything I've said. Lets not pretend that your dislike for my posts is about some greater concern for the common good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanji

But I do care about the increase of demands for this game to be split up.

Me too, the more vocal that demand gets the sooner anet realizes that attempting to please the very different types of player this game has attracted by watering down both elements is a pipe dream... The better GW gets. I like GW plenty right now, but that doesn't mean it cant get better.

Aracos79 · Aug 30, 2005, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Related to spliting up PvE and PvP... if they do that, then don't we basically have two games instead of one? I mean, it would be like Half-Life and Counter-Strike. Sure one is based off the other, but they are essentially completely different games. Now granted that's a very favorable comparison, but at that point ANet would essentially be dealing with TWO games instead of one. It seems to me that their intention is to provide a single, integrated product.

coleslawdressin · Aug 30, 2005, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Its not so fallacious assumption as you may think, not when I've seen the UAS crowd on several boards complain that the game is not skill > time, and seen some of those same posters use that very same "worked hard" justification in defense of bringing droks/elites to the introductory pvp areas.

Dont make the error of believing that I'm saying that everyone who pvp's is a hypocrite when it comes to this issue, but they are out there, in numbers. Folks who complain about the grind and how its not fair that they should have to spend time to be competitive with the people who spent time, and then turn right around and toss that philosophy right out the window when it comes to where new players are first introduced to pvp.

Whats more, we've covered the fact that Anet hasnt yet given up on this pipe dream of one gaming experience being agreeable to the twitch crowd and the roleplayers. I'm not doing anything to seperate the community, I don't have to do anything to do so. It is seperated. You can dog on me if you like for believing that the roleplaying game would be better with the removal of the twitches, but I've yet to see you reprimand a "hardcore" pvp player for comments about how the roleplaying game "doesnt matter" or any other number of derisive comments about anything other than PVP within the game. If youre going to display your own bias that blatantly, dont lecture me about what I'm supposedly doing to drive a wedge between this community. Please, that would be like trying to drive a wedge between the two sides of the Grand Canyon...

Awww.. Still sore huh?

Where the f

ck do you get off calling pvp players twitches? Not everyone that uses a pvp only char regularly is like what you refer to.. Change a couple letters and you get what I think of you.. Separating pve and pvp chars is the stupidest suggestion I have ever heard.. If I want to use my pve char to pvp why would I want to stuck with less skilled pve players?? Unlocking anything with faction is slow as hell.. If you just randomly buy GW and sign on and choose a pvp only, thinking you will be able to succeed with that you are in for a surprise...It isn't just that UAS people are complaining it isn't skill> time it is that they have to spend time in pve to unlock anything at an acceptable rate.. you really seem to not understand that.. try to if you want any respect from the other half of the community..

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 30, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

You just have to accept that with any game that takes EXPERIENCE and RESOURCES to do well in, time will be a factor to some extent. Anyone complaining about that simply doesn't think too hard about the entire situation.

As I've staid before, GW is a lot like MTG, with time spent unlocking skills akin to $ spent buying cards. In both you have to play matches to get better, meaning that time invested will correlate to skill.

In no game is it entirely true that time != skill, especially one as complex and multilayered as Guild Wars. One just has to accept that. Arguing about how some people are misinterpreting the situation is an utter waste of time.

As far as separating PVP-only characters from PVE characters in competition, Theocrat, you really have yet to post a convincing reason. The thing is, what makes a PVP-only character "versatile," as you put it? The fact that he is entirely expendable in terms of taking up a character slot. You would not be so quick to delete a PVE character in favor of making another build. That is ALL that makes one more versatile than the other.

So, why complain about that when all you really have to do to keep the useful "versatility" of a build-on-demand character is KEEP A FREE SLOT OPEN!!

As you said before, a Mo/Me from PVE is on the same playing field as a PVP-only Mo/Me, the difference being that the PVP-only char can be ditched in favor of a different build without the "time lost" factor of deleting a PVE character.

As far as your comments concerning "twitch" players and "roleplaying" players, I think that rather than supporting that gap in approach by modifying the game play experience around them individually, it is appreciable that Guild Wars in its current state appeals to both (and more) crowds. Guild Wars, to be experienced FULLY, requires both roleplaying and twitch skill, and I do not see how privileging either one OR the other (but not both at the same time) is a noble effort.

Sayshina · Aug 30, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

... the game is free so stop complaining.

enjoy the game or just quit.

only change that i and majority of community would like to see happen is refund points other than that they game is fine.

For the love of christ would you people please STOP CALLING THIS GAME FREE. Pay to play is a brand new idea, up until a few months ago it wasn't even on the radar. Before that time EVERY GAME was sold up front, JUST LIKE THIS GAME. When I picked up Master of Orion (game of the year before many of you were born) I PAYED FOR IT. Just because I didn't have to pay a subscription fee did not for 1 second lead me to believe I got that game for free.

Enjoy the game or quit, you say. If you don't like this country more to russia. That was the slogan when I was growing up. The trouble is that when they said "If you don't like this country" they invariably meant "If you don't like the way republicans want to run things". They, like you, assume that you are in the majority, simply BECAUSE it's you. That is your oppinion, so OF COURSE any normal, right thinking person will share it. ANYONE who does not share that sentiment MUST, BY DEFINITION, be abnormal.

The same goes for your "I and majority..." comment. You assume to be in the majority simply BECAUSE it's you.

To the guys flaming Theo: Get off of it. I don't agree with his generalizations concerning the PvP community, but he's allowed to have his oppinion, and in a free society he's ENTITLED to share them. Theodore Rooseveldt (President, Republican, hard assed cowboy) once said dissent was the MOST patrotic thing an American could do.

To Theo: Your characterization of the PvP community is WAY off. Even in it's current, mostly dead iteration. Most of the good PvP'ers are already gone. But even those that remain just wouldn't bother with arena's. Please understand, I'm not trying to justify the sort of crap you were talking about, taking top end armor and elites into low lvl arena's. I'm saying that it's PvE'ers doing that crap. And that my friend, fits in very well with the "I earned it" crap. That's pretty standard PvE fare, along with "they better not do anything that will deminish my efforts". Until you can show me some real evidence, and not just claim you've seen it but you not going to "bother" to show us, you have no arguement.

Also, before I move on to other people, you are sadly misguided about the reasons behind the PvP / PvE gulf. These two skill sets require fundamentaly different mindsets. Those who are good at one are highly unlikely to be good at the other. Most of you seem to have no problem swallowing the concept that hardcore PvP players just don't do as well in missions. They're easy to spot, they're the guys who clearly are NOT having fun, who would just as soon be someplace else. They're not necessarily the guys getting frustrated and quitting, but I won't lie and pretend that doesn't occur.

What you don't seem to be able to conceive of is that you PvE players are EVERY BIT as nerfed in PvP. Not your toons, YOU. You're just not as good. I'm not sure why this is so hard to accept, you're better at your thing, so why does it seem to hurt your feelings to hear anyone imply that you just MIGHT not be as good at our thing?

We don't enjoy playing against PvE'ers for the same reason Pro Tour Magic players don't enjoy playing against pick up kiddies. It's just not fun to play against unskilled, inexperienced opponents. It's even less fun when those guys are on your side.

By the way, I think if they HAD given us UAS and separate servers, the game MIGHT have stood a chance. I agree that Anet is very unlikely to change their minds at this point, as pride plays a major role. But that stubborn pride has killed their baby, so it all seems a bit silly to me. Perhaps they've all moved on to their next project, and are just giving up on this one. After all, we don't even see Gaile around anymore, and the devs havn't spoken since before release.

To whoever claimed Anet has stated they will never change UAS, or separate PvP and PvE, would you mind showing me where they said that? As well as where they said that UAS was only for testing in beta's? Please understand, I realize these things SEEM obviously to be their intent, but where exactly did they SAY that?

To those claiming increased faction would be gods gift to PvP, you don't seem to be aware that all the faction in the world can't unlock a single Elite skill. You can respond all you want that "elites are not needed, there's a counter to every skill", as many have in the past. The simple fact is that CANNOT compete on anything close to an equal footing.

To those demanding we love their grind, and insist on comparing GW to MMO's (notice I didn't say OTHER MMO's), many of you despise PvP. Back when you had no choice, when you got dumped into Tombs auto. once you finished the game, that was the number one complaint from PvE'ers. They didn't feel it was fair to "force" them to fight other people, which was something many of them felt was against the theme or some such weirdness. The bottom line is they liked the "cooperative" part, and didn't want to ever play against live ammunition.

So they changed the game to make them (you?) happy. Clearly, complaining works. It worked for you, so why exactly should those with a complaint keep silent?

The UAS was only in betas for skill testing actualy has some merrit. Unfortunatly, it also shows up just how short sighted Anet was about the entire PvP environment. Back then, you actualy could complete the game in a weekend. You got all your skills, including elites, from trainers. You COULD cap them, but nobody did. The best way to get an elite you needed was to buy a charm. Oh, by the way, back then you could use a charm to get 24 hours use of a skill that was not part of your Prime or Secondary. You could have off profession skills. Those were the days.

They put in UAS because there weren't enough people in PvP. People JUMPED into PvP as soon as it was implemented. They took it out. Then they put it back in, for the same reasons.

I might also add that in beta's the devs would actualy talk to us. Imagine that? We had numerous conversations with them, and we all assumed that what we knew as the game was largely finished and was down to tweeking. When you see PvP types stating they lied to us, it's not the damned advertisment on the box that they're talking about. Maybe, just maybe the dev's didn't technicaly lie to us. They just answered our questions in a manner that NEVER contradicted our belief in the game. They clearly misled us, for whatever reason. And THAT is why you heard howls of "bait and switch" starting the day of release.

Many of us felt then, and continue to feel the same, that this was done on purpose. They felt they needed us to increase their sales figures, and so they deliberately misled us for that purpose. In defense of Anet, I have often wondered if all this nonsense was really their fault. There is a parent company involved here, and I'm sure NC soft believes they know how to build a game. I'm also sure they have had some "suggestions".

To all PvE'ers: If this game is a RPG, then so is Warcraft III. Seriously. Right now, roughly a month into the new ladder season on Diablo 2, NOBODY has yet reached max level. After a month, NOBODY has the best gear, although many have managed to get their major skills maxed. And that's BARELY a RPG. Daggerfall is a RPG, WoW is a MMO. This game is neither.

They call it a "CORPG". Just because they wrote the code does NOT make them correct. The reason people compare this game to shooters is because there is no better comparison. Most shooters have missions, which are fairly light weight and serve mainly as a tutorial for various skills, gear, and basic interface issues. Sound familiar?

If I were to compare the gameplay to a single alternative, I'd say Thief or Hitman would be closest. GW is the shooter for the thinking man. It's not for twitch gamers (a phrase coined by a magazine publisher, btw), as it's just too slow paced and doesn't reward reflexes. Twitch gamers are just not built to enjoy this game, so I'm not sure what your point is in that particular accusation.

They most likely will never give us UAS or separate the communities. They should have, but hindsight is always 20/20. And as mentioned above, pride is now the limiting factor. It's most likely too late anyway. Even during the "super weekend", nobody was playing. I went online a couple of times to check if it had make any impact, and Tombs never got past 12 districts. I realize many of you think that doesn't matter, that a few hundred players would be plenty for you as long as you have your dozen or so friends. That hardly makes for a commercial success. 50,000 people are playing Diablo 2 at any given moment. A 5 year old game. How many people are on WoW? I wonder why Anet stopped shouting about how GW was keeping up with WoW in sales? They made a huge deal about that in the first week. It's a shame really. This game had huge promise, and now it's gone and screwed things up for everyone else. This whole industry is nothing but copycat. Whenever anyone does dare to step out of line, and fails, the industry figures "don't do whatever they did".

We'll most likely not see any new "free" MMO's. We'll also most likely not see another "fantasy shooter" either. The failure of GW, due mostly to pride and misguided intentions, will ensure nobody else takes the chance.

Oh, one fundamental error in the GW compared to MTG comments. Those who are serious PT players HAVE ALL THE CARDS. If you don't, you are not competitive. I gave up chasing the title during Academy Summer. There was a wedding to save for, and the damned cards had to go. So I quit playing, because trying to play tournies as a casual gamer is futile. The same applies to this game. If you show up at the qualifier and discover that the deck archetypes are totaly different from what you thought, you MUST rework your deck immediatly. If you try to show up for GvG, and discover the metagame has shifted, you have no choice but to spend the next week or two grinding out the necessary skills, all the while hoping your teamates are keeping up.

Without a level playing field, there is no such thing as fair competition. All those trying to compare this game to MMO's miss a fundamental point. Those games make no pretense of fair competition. They think nothing of a max lvl ganking a noobie. This game is supposed to be different, and those PvP types who have a complaint are simply pointing out that is has failed to live up to that promise. All of you saying things like "PvP only's are already more flexible and have an advantage" miss the fundamental arguement they are trying to make. They don't want to have to face you. It's not fun to beat up on a weaker opponent. Most of us would vastly prefer beating up on an equal opponent. Having my ass handed to me by the 8th ranked MTG player on the planet (at the time) was not so great for me, but he looked just plain bored.

lg5000 · Aug 30, 2005, 05:52 AM // 05:52

After reading most of this... I'm glad I'm not a gamer and that this is really the first game which graces my comp.. because I CAN say I'm enjoying the game, without having to compare it to another game/whine about things not going my way.. somehow, I accept it the way it is.

As for unlocking all skills, basically putting 3 chars through pve... Each char plays differently, and depending on what mood I'm in, I enjoy playing one more than the other, but in general (exept for ascalon area (I have something against low-levels)), it's fun putting different chars through the game.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 30, 2005, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

I challenge anyone who says this game is not completely and utterly broken to go to the tombs, get 8 complete random people to join your group, and by random I mean not even looking at their class, and once you have a full team, tell each person a specific build they need to return with, and tell them to meet up there in 5 minutes with a maxed out perfect team build.

1) I play this game way too much, and I never, ever, do that. Never even tried. Never even considered trying. Weird, isn't it?
2) Personal remark: Bossy much? If someone randomly invited me to a group then ordered me to get a certain build I didn't normally play just to fit his, I'd tell him to shove his group. Which, I suppose, is exactly what most people have told you to do.

Quote:

Can't do that? Then PvP is broken.

Ah.
Once againt the PvP people continue to confuse their obscure little problems with _PvP_ with _the whole game_.
Because for them the PvP IS the game. For me PvP is nothing. For me the PvE is the game, and PvP just a sort of amusing minigame in the game.

The PvP in tombs may be broken, I neither know nor care. The PvE and the random arenas are just fine, though, thankyouverymuch.

asdar · Aug 30, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

I challenge anyone who says this game is not completely and utterly broken to go to the tombs, get 8 complete random people to join your group, and by random I mean not even looking at their class, and once you have a full team, tell each person a specific build they need to return with, and tell them to meet up there in 5 minutes with a maxed out perfect team build.

Can't do that? Then PvP is broken. Quit harping on this endless bullshit of "just deal with it". The game was "built from the ground up for competition", and if you can't compete with a PUG, the bare minimum of which is having at least a semi-organized team build, you are not playing competitively despite what you hypnotise yourself into thinking from your 30 minute PvP experience in the random arenas with a paladin build!

The game isn't by any means broken because you can't open the box and have it all. You can go to tombs and pick up a group to make a build. If you're in a guild you can set people to play a role in a build.

I've finished the game with 3 characters, mo/me ele/nec and war/ranger and I'm not hard core. I'm a bit more than casual but not much. Now it's even easier than it was when I went through the game.

I would like for them to put in UAS, I think the game is good enough to hold players without time sinks but it's past time to start playing and stop complaining.

Random teams should never be as good as organized teams, if they were then strategy would mean nothing.

I don't care or want them to split PvE/PvP. I make a new character in my last slot for every PvP build I want to play. I'd like more slots but I won't use the last one up for PvE. I don't see how giving increased faction makes it unfair unless you bring your PvE character in to the Tombs. If you want to bring a PvE character in then you have to deal with whatever comes your way.

It's a whole lot easier for a PvE player to rebuild a PvP character than for PvP characters to unlock skills in PvE.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 30, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

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